Hot Water Recirculating Pumps

I have an instantaneous water heater in the basement. Hot water takes up to a minute to make it to the shower and to the kitchen sink. what is the best recirculating pump or system to use in this situation. thanks!

I name the pump in a sister column on the website. Clue: it begins with the letter g.

So where is this sister column on the website that names what you think is the best recirculating pump. I can't find it. Thanks.

Bob,
I just went to the top of this page and typed "recirculating pump" into the search engine and Ta Da!!!! Look at the results. Behold the power of the AsktheBuilder search engine! :->

I have a recirculting pump with a timer attached to a water heater. The pump is attached to the drain outlet of the tank. This was installed when the house was built Oct. 2006. After a few weeks liveing in the house we began hearing a sound of steam releasing just like a steam iron. At time it loud and at times it is faint. Do you have any suggestions? Thank you

Victor,
I have no suggestions other than to contact the manufacturer and see if they say it is normal.

Help!! I've been having a disagreement with our builder for the year that we've lived in the house. We have a walk-in shower with 10 foot ceilings. Problem is when the weather cools of in South Texas, it feels like we have about two minutes to shower if we plan to not freeze to death while showering. We have a TACO pump but it doesn't seem to be enough to correct the problem. We have tried adjusting the thermostat on the electric water heater but for obvious reasons that's not the best alternative. I'm guessing the pipe run from heater to shower head is about 50feet. Can you give me any suggestions?

Laurie,
Your comment leaves me shaking my head. What is the relationship between the ceiling height and running out of hot water? If you are saying that hot water only flows for two minutes and then turns cold, then I say you have a defective dip tube. Read all about those in another column of mine.

I have been thinking about the efficiency of the circulating loop. My son just moved into a new home with a unit. His cold water is no longer cold, but rather warm. His hot water is hot immediately. My concern is the amount of energy that is lost with the hot water continually running through the pipes. Has anyone conducted a study as to the relationship of wasted water to wasted energy?

Thank you

Richard

I am on my 4th recirc pump (3 TACOs) in 1 year (new construction with warranty coverage). We have hard water and are now being told that the constant hot water increases sediment (which we see and have replaced 3 showerheads as well) and this will be a recurrent problem. We also get only lukewarm water to our master/kitchen downstairs but great hot water to the upstairs baths and 1 downstairs bath. Any ideas on decreasing sediment and is true about the hot water causing it? (We've flushed both heaters twice this year already.) Also what problems could be causing the imbalance in our system? Our plumber just cannot seem to fix it (30+ visits/1 year...) All plumbed out...

Susan,
My high school chemistry class notes show that heat can accelerate reactions, so maybe it can increase the rate of precipitation.....
It sounds like you have an inferior piping design. You need to bring in a mechanical engineer who designs hot water systems for hotels and hospitals.

There is a pump available at my local Home Depot that claims to work on any hot water system. My house does not have a hot water return going back to the hot water heater so I'm thinking this might be the way to go. It's only $200 and all the reviews that have been left claim that it is EXTREMELY easy as a do-it-yourself project. Could you please check it out and let me know if it is a good system to use?
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImage/e339de60-c9f8-4d36-b9ec-131386f77 441.pdf

Thanks,

Brad

Brad,

Why not look at the pump that is in the photo to this column? It is a Grundfos one. There is very little I have ever seen at HD that I would put in my own hme for what that is worth.

I have a taco recirc pump. My shower is about 125 ft from the heater. My HWH tank rust out and leaks about every 18 months to 2 years. I have a large water softner before the heater. Rumor has it recirc systems will promote decay of the tank. Any news on this subject ??

I theorize the recirc has entrapped air. Air with water will accelerate corrosion. Maybe the line needs a air strainer prior to the tank or something to keep the air out of the tank while circulating. OTHER COMMENTS: 1)10 ft ceilings in the showers will be cold, large areas in the shower allow air to convect -the hot water force causes a natural current, (large showers are taboo, dont build them), 2)Over rate your water softner by 30 to 50 % and make sure it is prior to Ur HWH. 3)Install a good size filter from ur water 'in' prior to the water softner for sediment removal. Change the filter about once a year -depending.

Gary,
You need to contact the water-heater local factory rep. Air would *never* stay in the tank, it would bubble / float to the highest part of the system and spurt out when you opened valves.

I had a circulating loop installed and a new water heater about 6 months ago, a timer was not installed, the plumber installed a drain spout that empties into my wash basin (located next to water heater); is it normal for water to drain from they system for 20 - 30 minutes?

Lynn,
No. Maybe I am not understanding you, but a loop should be a closed system.

I have a recirculating hot water pump and when we set the breakers (due to a disposal issue) something happened and now the hot water takes forever as before it was instant. ?And the water pressure in the furthest room has changed as well. Do you have any suggestions as to what might be wrong?

Gynelle,
It sounds like two issues. Electrical for the heater and a sediment issue for the far-away fixture.

Tim, whenever i turn my hot water handles my pipes bang very loud,i made sure i got all the air out of the lines ,but it just keeps on getting worse.any suggestions would be helpful. thankyou

CPD,
Read all of my columns about Water Hammer.

I saw that you recommended the Grundfos from the picture. It looks real easy to install. I already have a power outlet in the attic where my 2 hot water heaters are located. The Master bath is on the far side of the house on 1st floor. Do you believe it to be better than the Laing AutoCirc that goes under the farthest sink? They both seem to be comparably priced, but I'd have to install an outlet under the sink for the Laing. What are your thoughts?

I own a Watts Premier hot water recirculating system and it has worked great for me and my family for many years. I have saved a ton of money on my water bill!!! They also carry water filtration systems that I am looking into purchasing.

Jim,
I think my thoughts are in the column above. :->

We have a new home with a recirc pump connected to the bottom of the water heater. The home was built with an insulated loop line, not a retrofit. The instant hot water aspect works fine. However, our cold water is now luke warm. The house is under warranty still, and we had the plumber out. He said that the pump was back pressurizing the cold line. I thought about that, and it doesn't make any sense. I don't see how there should be any connection between hot and cold sides unless they somehow buggered the plumbing and are using a cold line for return somewhere instead of the insulated loop line that we paid for. Is warm water from the cold tap common in recirc systems? I'd love to hear any explanations for this effect. Thanks -- Eric

Eric,
You are correct. There might be a cross connection someplace. If the recirculation loop is only feeding the hot-water supply lines, how could water get back into the cold water system other than to flow back up through the cold-water inlet at the heater. To prevent this, there is supposed to be a check valve at the cold-water side of the heater.

Our house is about 12 years old. Last week we had 2 slab leeks at the same time. We have had that fixed. Right after these repairs our water in our shower will run for about 4-5 min and then turn cold. After about 4-5 mins it's hot again. This goes on all day. I had the same plumbers out that did the slab leek and they checked the water heater and all elements and nothing was wrong. The water heater is about two years old. There is something wrong but they are not looking past the water heater. What else could be causing this problem. These are very reputable plumbers.
Thanks,
Kay

Kay,
Maybe at the same time the dip tube in the heater went bad...... Install a new one.

I read 2 different comments that mentioned luke warm water coming from the cold supply with the recirculating systems that use the cold supply for return lines. Is this true? If so, now you have to wait for cold water?
Thankyou,
Scott

Scott,
There is a problem in the setup when that happens.

I want to disconect my recirculating pump since it has quit working. Can I just disconnect it or do I need to consider or need to do something other than just unplug it!

Approximately 3 weeks ago I was hearing water running in the pipe by my shower, there is no evidence of water leakage in the ceiling and it is not heard anywhere else. Then the water was not so hot anymore. My neighbor came over and said your water heater is going. Ok, so I put on a new water heater and we notice that the circulation pump, the outside of it was quite hot, there is no timer on it, we shut it off at the breaker. I still hear the water running in the lines and the water is only warm with the new heater, not hot, in fact you cannot use any cold or the water is cold. Plumber's answer is get a larger water heater, I don't think so, the water never ran thru the lines like that before.. Any help?

I am installing a Watts hot water recirc pump in a five bedroom rancher. How often should I set the recirc timer?

Hi,

I am a single woman first time homeowner. I own a two-family brownstone in NYC. In the basement I have two hot water heaters. They seem to be hooked in parallel and not one heater per apartment (I don't know this for a fact). The brownstone has four floors: the first floor has a shower, bath, kitchen; second floor has a half bath and kitchen, third floor has a shower, bath, and washer/dryer; and the fourth floor has a shower, jacuzzi bath and double sink. The problem is the fourth floor. I takes a bit more than 10 minutes to get hot water to the shower and a few minutes to get hot water to the sink.
Would a recirculating pump help this and would I have to purchase the comfort valve for all the different shower/baths/washers/kitchens on the other floors as well? Or is something else wrong with my plumbing?

I had a separate water line installed for circulating the hot water when we had our house built and it has works ok.� Our systems has the return line connected into the supply line at the top of the tank. I have observed other systems similar to ours but they connect in at the drain valve on the bottom.� Connecting at the bottom seems the better way.� If I changed ours would it work better?

I live in an apartment building where very often, mostly early morning, the water coming out of the "cold" tap comes out scalding hot. The "hot" tap is hot water as well. I can't seem to get a clear explanation why this is happening. It did start happening shortly after work was done in the building and in my bathroom. Also can only have baths because I can't regulate the water in the shower other than scalding hot.

We have a recirculating hot water system in our 7.5-year-old home to our master bath which is the furthest room from the hot water heater. We are now on our 4th or 5th leak in the copper pipe for this. All leaks but one was closest to the hot water heater and the recirc. system. The other leak was in our finished basement ceiling - and ruined dry wall, etc. Is this going to be a recurring event with this system? Some folks we have spoke with have had this problem. Should we take out this luxury system to avoid any further leaks? Or do you know what could be causing this? They seem to be pin-hole leaks. Thanks for your assistance!

A water softener is the only way I know to eliminate hard water. As for the circulator problem I try the redytemp system. We chose them to avoid the hard water problems your experiencing. It cost a bit more but we wanted the calcium proof features as well as the adjustable temperature function. We've had ours for over four years without any problems.

Install water treatment equipment for water softening like something on this site http://www.waterking.com/
Do not heat water above 120�F because scaling is progressive after that temperature.
What type of water-tap you have in kitchen?
If you ever had normally hot water in master/kitchen and you only recently don't have hot water, then it could be because of sediments or bad water-tap. Try to change water-tap.
If you never had warm water there, then instalation is not properly done.

please help! I work in a 5 story bldg that has HW circulating problems. You have to run the HW for several minutes to get HW. The water on the Hot side of the faucet is ice cold at times. Where can the cold water be migrating into the hot side?? There is a common HW return line in the bldg.
Thanks

Can a recirculating pump be used in conjunction with a tankless gas water heater?
thanks!

Hey Bob, any idea how much noise these under the counter recirc pumps make? I am remodeling my masterbath and want to be Greener by not wasting so much water waiting on the hot to make it up. Since I am in the shower by 5:30am it would be unfortunate if these pumps were noisy. Thanks

I have problems with my recir pump casuing my pipes to break down and pin size hole in the pipes keep occuring after 4 to 5 years. Is this normal?

I have a 100 gallon gas hot water heater for 19 apartments with a timer on the recirculating pump that can be set for two times. I want to reduce wear and tear on the hot water system. What time periods should the timer be set to turn the reciculating pump on and off to provide reasonable hot water service to the tenants but reasonably limit the wear and tear on the hot water pipes caused by the recirculating pump?

We just moved into a home a few months ago. The home is fairly new - built in 2004 and has a recirculating valve on the water heater. Recently, the water service to our house was interrupted because of a broken water main. We didn't know about it until we used all the water in the water heater. The recirculating valve was make a funny noice (almost like an alarm). After water service was returned to our house, we no longer have instant hot water. Was the recirculating valve damaged or so I have to do something to make it work again, like prime it or something? I've looked at it and don't see anything that looks like a reset switch or anything. Any advice?

I had a circulator pump installed in our closed loop hot water system when our house was built in 2001. I have two switches controlling the pump; one by the pump and one in our master bath which I can turn off at bed time or when traveling.
Would it be benefical to add a 15 minute on-off timer so that the pump doesn't run all day? Right now I can hardly tell the difference in the daily gas usage whether the pump is on or off.

HI there it seems like we wait for ever to get hot water inour show and our sinks, I have read about and concidered installing a hot water recirculating pump. most that are on the market today us the cold water line as a return line. how exactly does that work, there should be presure there for the cold water. how can you force hot water back through it? where does it go if does go through the cold water lines? I'm not a plumber but I'm pretty sure that my cold water line does not go back to my hot water tank. can you explain how this all works? if it does use the cold water line, is the cold water still COLD???
thanks

I agree with the energy issue. What about a local electric heater. I've seen products that fit into the wall cavity space for single appliances. i am unaware of how they compare with circulating pumps in terms of efficiency but i think its worth looking into.

How high does the hot water line pressure go when the pump is on before the tap is opened? Or, how much above house pressure does the pump provide?

To the gentleman named "Richard Meyer" who was interested in the the difference between wasted water and wasted energy... I don't think the main reason people install these pumps (I am one of them) has to do with wasted water. Of course, none of us wants to waste water or energy, but that isn't the primary motivation for installing such a pump. Speaking for myself and friends who have one, we installed it because we wanted hot water to be instantly available at every sink and shower.

However, I believe I can say that relatively little energy is wasted for several reasons:

1. How often does one really want cold water at a tap? Isn't warm or hot water usually what we turn the faucet or shower on for? The only time we really want cold water is for a drink, and ice cubes solve that instantly (if the water is warm), and many people don't drink tap water anyway.

2. In a system without a pump, you have to draw the hot water the distance of the heater to the sink/shower/tub you are using, but energy is still wasted. After you are done with the hot water, it sits in the line losing heat until it is the temperature of the environment it is in (the ground, a wall, whatever). How different is that from a system with a pump?

As our resident "AsktheBuilder" said, the best pump has a timer on the pump and a valve at the farthest sink/shower/tub. This means that you can run the pump just a few hours a day if you like, and it stops pumping when the valve cuts the flow. If you have a pump with a timer and the cut-off valve, you drastically reduce the energy loss.

3. Radiant water heating (with pipes running under the floor) is an optional install in higher-end production homes and custom homes. A recirculating pump produces a kind of "unintentional" radiant heating, which is useful in the winter. In other words, in the winter there is no energy waste, the heat (to a very small extent) warms the home, reducing the amount your furnace runs. In the summer of course, this would not be advantageous. However, if you live in an area of the world/country where it is cold/cool a good deal of the year, the energy loss is probably nil because it actually (again, in a very minuscule amount) reduces the energy usage of your furnace.

When you factor in all these points, not only do you realize that the energy loss is very minor, but you have even more reason to want this device. Warm water is always available (which is the kind you most often would want), water waste is basically eliminated and (most importantly) there is no waiting for hot water... ever.

I've had this installed in my home for two years. I put it in when I installed our new water heater. I did all the work myself, it was easy (but then, I am a carpenter and a "handy" person). My family *loves* it. We liked the idea of it before I put it in, but we loved it after we began using it. I can't really communicate how pleasant it is. Perhaps it is simply my family's personal taste, but friends and family who have spent the night (or a few days) at our home love it as well. It is one of those things that you just don't realize how nice it is until you have it. It's a big time saver too. You turn on the shower when you're in it, as opposed to turning it on a few minutes before you get in. Every time you wash your hands the water is warm. It's just a really nice touch in a home.

I, like you, was concerned about wasting energy, but I have seen no (discernable) difference in my energy usage/cost. I am conservative with the timer, but it's not complicated. Everyone is out of the house by 8:30 am on weekdays, and no one is using hot water until after 5pm. So, I simply have the pump kick on about 30 minutes before we get up, and kick off about 30 minutes before we leave in the morning. I have it turn back on again about 5pm, and off again at 8pm. We all shower in the morning, it's not planned that way, I just realized one day that we all showered in the morning.

So, it's really simple to set the timer with our habits/schedule. Although it's set up to run for five hours per day (combined) it doesn't run that long at all because of the cut-off valve. Once the water reaches 98 degrees (Fahrenheit) at the farthest sink, the valve shuts off and the pump shuts off. I work out in the garage a good deal and I hear it turning on and off and it runs very little, you get a lot of bang for your buck.

If you have to run the hot water for minutes at your shower (any one of them), trust me, you want this device. Your kids and your wife will love you and think you're a magician especially if you install it yourself. If you have a modicum of "do it yourself" (DIY) skills, you can install this pump. If you live in a relatively new home, it couldn't be any easier, because most of the connection are screw-on flex tubing. The pump installs directly on top of the hot water heater, all you do is unscrew the line from the water heater, put the pump in and reconnect. If it's hard-plumbed then you have some work, but with compression fittings and flex line it would be easy. At the farthest sink, you simply disconnect the lines under the sink from the cut-off valves and put the valve in between. My pump had the flex lines — to go from the valve to the hot and cold on the sink — included in the box. If you have screw-on flex tubing, it's a snap. If it's hard plumbed (which is rare) you have some work to do. I can't go into detail, but even if it's hard-plumbed there is an easy work-around for that (which involves unscrewing the lines from the sink). Point being, in most cases, installing this pump is very easy for someone with even rudimentary DIY skills.

Whew, I really wrote a little tome there didn't I? Haha. I guess you can tell I like this device and I had a little free time today. Anyway, I hope that answered some questions for any folks that ended up here on this wonderful site. ;-)

A recirculation pump with a dedicated return line and a timer has two problems:

1) Most of the time the pump is running, it is not needed
2) When Hot water is needed, the pump is often not running.

I solved the problem with a unique "on-demand" control that turns on the pump when the hot water anywhere in the house is turned on. Please see the image at

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr167/PRYGAARD/RecirculationControl.png

1) On the cold water IN on the Hot Water tank, a flow switch is installed that turns on when it detects flow. (Note: This can *not* be anywhere in the circulation loop)

2) A Delay-Off timer turns the pump on immediately when the Flow Switch turns on, but does not turn off the pump for a while after the flow switch is turned off. (The delay time needs to be adjusted for the characteristics of the particular installation. Typical times range from 30-90 seconds)

3) An aquastat is used to turn off the pump when the farthest faucet in the loop reaches temp.
When the hot water is turned on, the pump comes on and hot water arrives fairly quickly (but not instantly). The innovation is this: Turn the hot water on for a second and then turn it back off...and the pump keeps going for a while. Then just wait for a little bit and turn the Hot water back on...it is hot and ready to use. However, after the water is turned off, the pump will run for the delay time and then stops till the next time there is demand.
Flow Switch: Gems 26605 (I got it cheap on ebay).

I used the following parts:

(http://www.gemssensors.com/ApplicationSearchResults.asp?nQuestionID=36 ) Others are available, but be sure to get one that has a fairly low trip point on the flow. (.75 – 1 GPM)

Delay off Timer: MX046 timer kit. (15 second to 6 min delay)
(http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=466) It is inexpensive but you must build it into a case. There are other delay-off timers and relays available but this seems to be the cheapest option.

Aquastat: Grundfos ½” Clip on.