Concrete Countertops

Hey Mr Carter, you wrote above:

"you would be shocked at how much work and expertise goes into createing a masterpiece". Well - No I wouldn't. Check this site out.

http://search.us.kohler.com/?i=1&page=1&q=lavastone&u1=q&x=12&y=6§ion=B athroom

I'm trying to find a reasonable alternative for Kohler lavastone myself. If you have any ideas or know anyone in the Biloxi, MS area who can do that kind of work please let me know. Thanks a bunch

Tim,
I saw a show once where the designer actually painted on some form of concrete on counter tops. Are you familiar with this? Does it even exist? If so, is it durable? Is it something I could do by myself?

Kathy,
I am not familiar with that product. Sorry!

Kathy, There is a product that you have described. I have used it and found it more than satisfactory. I believe the name of the product is Flexstone or Flexrock and I got mine from Home Hardware in Canada. The process is very simple and much less expensive than replacing a countertop with natural stone and much less labor intensive than replacing one with concrete. I have put this product on the countertops of two bathrooms and my daughter has used it to cover the plywood surrounding her range nook to make it look like limestone blocks.
In both cases it has generated wows and disbelief when told the nature of the product. The only problems I have encountered is that the layer of concrete is relatively thin (about 1/8 inch or so) and one of my boys dropped a wrench on it and chipped a tiny hole in the counter where the underlying counter color shows through. Patching it is pretty simple. Let me know if I can help further.
Also, my husband and I have done beautiful concrete countertops for our kitchen. They were a first for us and problematic at times, but eventually we resolved our difficulties and they are pretty gorgeous. Our only unsolved problem is the matter of the sealer, which is why I visited this site in the first place. Although the one we have is extremely easy to apply, it also scratches easily and turns white when water is left on it. Does anyone know of a sealer they would recommend? Lorraine

I have concrete countertops that need to be sealed. We were advised not to seal them permanently because then they would get a "plastic look." Instead - we use "Pledge" and when they are polished - they look great. Unfortunately, because I love to cook - I have stains from everything acidic.

Help! What product can be used to seal these permanently and end my fear of anyone trying to help me in the kitchen for fear of more stainage!

I Girl,
How about a silane/siloxane water repellent? Go to www.SaverSystems.com and look at Masonry Saver.

Tim,thanks for the suggestion. The product looks just like what we need. If I don't hear back from the 2 different contractors that I have repeatedly contacted (is it industry standard to not return phone calls?), I will tackle this myself. =)

Tim.

I am a concrete contractor expanding into the field of concrete as a decorative and beautiful part of our indoor homes, from polished floors to countertops and furniture styles. From start to finish this has been an enormous learning cure because most of the information to work on these types of projects comes from people selling product that will not do what they say it will! Any one who has put the time and effort into finding what works for them will have a great deal hesitation to share with the average home owner or builder.
To produce the picture perfect countertop with the luxury of durability is not an easy task. I would not recommend any home owner or do it yourself to tackle this sort of a project. Concrete countertops are best left to the professionals with years of experience and a lot of well kept secrets to create a masterpiece that is not only beautiful but also durable. I hope the average Joe will not take offence to this, but it may destroy their appreciation for concrete and all of the possibilities that can be created with this wonderful material!!!!!
I would like to hear any responses to the above comments, thanks Scott!!!!

Scott,

I am not a contractor or home builder, but I just finished my first counter top. It is for our bathroom we just put into our basement. While the task of creating a counter top is time consuming at first, it can be relatively easy for those with "better than average" skills.
The resources I used were from a few different websites and books on the subject. From them I learned about mold making and the different types of concrete that can be used. When I was ready for polishing I found a website that sells polishing pads to the public. After the last buffing pad was used my counter top looks great! Now I just need to seal it. Any pointers? ;)

Tim,
If we always left it to the professionals with years of experience there would be no new professionals... Sounds like nepotism to me. I believe that any person with patience and a willingness to take their time to learn a craft and has enough money to supplement mistakes should endeavor to take on a new craft. Our Co. does everything but electrical and plumbing for commercial property managers, Home builders, and Home owners. Concrete counter tops and not just ground but polished and stained concrete floors are our next endeavor. I live to learn, and I am thankful that I have a career that allows me to learn and perform as many trades as I dream to. (exit stage left from soap box...)

Me again. All complete! I ended up using a natural stone/ceramic/granite deep penetrating sealer from Home Depot that also give it that "wet look". After that cured I used a surface sealer/cleaner to finish it off. It looks beautiful! Here is a link to the finished product if anyone is interested.
*before the pour*
http://darkjuan.livejournal.com/65093.html
*breaking the mold and finishng*
http://darkjuan.livejournal.com/65613.html

Good luck to everybody!

Ken,
Thanks for your comment. I agree with you. That is how I learned. But you have to always read the question part of the column to understand my answer. In this case, this was the first time the person was going to try it - and on her own home! My feeling was this was not the time for on-the-job training.

We just finished our first kitchen countertop, and the color is already peeling off the top in places. I'm actually thrilled since I hate the color, but any tips on getting the rest of the sealer and concrete stain off without destroying my beautiful new--and CLEAN--kitchen and wood floors?

Also, I'm trying to find out how to create the rustic acid-eaten, marble-like vintage look after removing the old color. Any ideas? We'd like to do it ourselves if at all possible, since the first time around was done by "professionals." Thanks!!!

Liza,
I am not a fan of amateur chemistry experiments. You should contact the sealer and stain manufacturers to see about reversing the chemistry. As for aging the concrete, once again you are talking about some form of chemistry. Buy some great drop cloths.....

I am interested in whether it is possible to lay concrete floors over ceramic tile floors inside our home...

Carrie,
It is possible.

darkjuan what sites did you use in terms of the molding....

I am building a house and on a fairly tight budget. I like concrete counter tops, and a friend of mine has some that I may be able to salvage and re-install in my kitchen. He said that someone he knows had them installed/poured in his new kitchen, and upon getting married his wife did not like concrete and wanted to replace them with granite. He had them removed, but in complete pieces and gave them to my friend who was thinking of how he could use them. However, they are stained a greenish color which does not work for me, and I was wondering how difficult it will be to restain them a dark charcoal gray...what are the steps, and how should I go about this if it's at all possible? Thanks, any help would be appreciated for this first time homebuilder...

DO NOT BUY THE PRODUCT, FLEXROCK:
I needed a product to go over my concrete patio to freshen it up. I went to Home Hardware to inquire about a product I had heard about called Flexrock. I had a handy man with me and the salesperson assured us that "anyone" could use this product. Well almost $200.00 later and an additional handymen trying to figure it out we gave up and covered what had been applied with a regular paint. It was no way close to what it should have been and we followed the instructions to the letter. The colour, the texture, everything was wrong.
Please advise people that this is not a good product to use.

re: Flexrock

Sheila, was anyone responsible for reading the directions and purpose of the product package? Flexrock is only for vertical applications like siding, stucco and so forth. It is not a wear surface, nor is it designed to be in contact with standing water, so of course it won't work on a patio.

I am new to concrete countertops. However back in the 80's I worked several years for a mason pouring basement floors etc. I am a lifelong woodworker but decided to build my own countertops after reading about them for some time. I found sealing them to be the biggest question mark? The big players in this market won't sell you their product unless you join their elite club, at $1200.00 yearly membership I believe? Right. I finally decided to use a good quality high gloss sealer and then a bee's wax. You have to re wax periododiclly but the finsih is wonderful. A wax job is pretty easy and only takes ten minutes. I have had a lot of fun building these and have several job's lined up. I am not charging an arm and a leg. I am not greedy, I just want a days pay for a days work.

I'm coming late to the conversation but i've been trying to find a decent sealer to keep my countertops (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2005770&id=1095683250) from acquiring the serious acid stains that "International Girl" describes. I've used a wipe on stone sealer, a spray on stone sealer, and a gel gloss, all numerous times, and yet it still remains porous enough to stain on contact. I'm about ready to simply use linseed oil and be done with it. Has anyone had experience with using a food safe oil?

I am certainly no expert, and I have never done a concrete countertop, -- though I've assisted with placing fence posts in concrete -- :)

However, I did see one of those "home improvement" shows once where the man who built the concrete countertop sealed it with the same substance used to seal butcher block tables. Whatever is used should be food-safe.

Sorry, I don't know what the substance was ... does anyone else?

And, Tim, I wholeheartedly agree with your "live to learn" philosophy!

Sorry ... I meant "Ken", not "Tim." :)

To all:
Regarding sealers: be very careful in what you purchase that it is foodsafe; you don't want to add toxins to your kitchen! Everything I've read recommends using carnauba wax and reapplying it monthly. It's safe and heat resistant.

Concrete, like any other solid surface, is going to have it's drawbacks but the applications are endless, incredibly customizable, and definitely beautiful.

I'm learning now how to work with it and it is, indeed, an artform- down to the basic concrete formula. (Ken mentioned his success, congratulations! but let us know how they look in a year or two. That's when you know you've been successful.)

I've been in the interior decor and landscape design fields for over ten years and concrete artisans have definitely earned their place in the business.

Of course, you can build your own- but make sure you have the time, patience, information and materials to do it right. It IS labor intensive and it IS an art.

I AM JUST ABOUT TO SEAL MY NEWLY POURED INPLACE CONCRETE COUNTERTOP. I JUST PURCHASED A WATER BASED SEALER CALLED KRYSTAL KOTE FROM :
http://www.directcolors.com/concretesealerwater/

IT IS MADE FOR COUNTERTOPS AND IS FOOD SAFE.
HAS ANYONE USED THIS PRODUCT? HOW WELL DOES IT HOLD UP TO STAINS? HOW WELL DOES IT HOLD UP TO HOT OBJECTS?
THANKS FOR ANY COMMENTS.

To anyone out there who is considering concrete countertops...DONT DO IT!! I just finished building my dreamhome last July and had concrete counters professionally done from a well know and highly recommended craftsman. They cost me over $10,000 and were a splurge because we loved the uniqueness and design possibilities. Well 8 months later and they look like #@*&!!!! Stains everywhere...if you even get a touch of vinegar or lime/lemon juice on the counter for a SECOND you'll be left with a PERMANENT STAIN...and not a "natural patina" as the so called "craftsman" said was part of the "charm", an ugly drink ring that looks dirty. Our island countertop is now warping, I believe due to the large size and sheer weight of it...experts will tell you that I just got a bad craftsman, but I know a guy across the country who does these all the time and has admitted they they are very pourous, stain easily and can have issues even in skilled hands- I've found it to be close to marble stainability. Bottom line- Im now demanding a FULL refund- Im ripping them out and going with honed black granite which has a lovely natural soapstone look and resists stains, heat and knives!! I had them in my old house- they are time tested and true!

I am considering taking on a kitchen countertop made of concrete.

I am on that does not mind learning and doing the work if it means I am saving money. These so called professionals these days with their " SECRET METHODS " are expensive and my experience has been they don't do the job they are paid for.

I am on the learning curve now and will manufacture my counter top soon. I am willing to take on the work to get a good product rather than pay overpriced Pros with their secretive agendas.

Todays population has gotten away from creation of a home products, leaning more to spending too much money for pressed wood and sloppy work.

We need to save money these days and be more creative with out own designs and creations.

The only real " Secret " out there is our ability to save the money for our counter tops or other home products rather than paying someone for work that most likely be over priced, some of which I would never have found acceptable.

Some of these contractors should be practicing Refuse Pick-Up, based on the work I have seen.

If one has the time, and the courage to take this type of project on, They need to seach for info and learn all the steps and values before beginning. Done properly, they will have a feeling of completing a difficult project and a product to be proud of, while having saved a lot of money.

Based on some new home construction, I think the trades have not sustained the quality and value for the price they ask for.

After all, Its all buyer-be-ware.

SL

Just had a disaster countertop installed by a builder/carpenter who promised a beautiful countertop - with a surface like glass/marble. The surface is full of cracks, The edges were rough and crumbled which he keeps trying to make forms to fix - still not right, now the sealer is peeling off. about to go to court, any information or advise of why this guy can not get it right? Would advise anyone to stay away from concrete countertops unless the contactor can show you his previous work and you are happy with what you see. when it goes wrong it is expensive and very ugly!!!

To Melissa and others with bad experiences: I'm sorry for your troubles. As with any contractor, if they don't have a portfolio, references that you can call and a significant amount of training- don't use them. IF you don't do your research and you get substandard product/service; you can't blame the entire industry. That's not fair to those of use who do the job right and stand behind our products.
I've installed concrete countertops in dozens of homes- including my own and my mothers- and as long as proper care and maintenance are taken (as with any product, including natural stone) then they will be beautiful and durable for years. I've had extensive training and continue my training every year. I spent a lot of time and money developing the right mix design that doesn't warp, bend or crack and is dense enough to help resist stains. As with any hand-crafted product- the end result is only as good as the materials used, the artisan and the care you take of it.
As far as doing it yourself goes- yes, you can create a lovely piece on your own if you want to take the extensive time and copious physical labor to do so. Again- research the pre-mixed product and follow the instructions exactly.
Just remember- blaming an entire INDUSTRY for your bad experience is like saying CARS are bad because you bought a lemon. DO YOUR RESEARCH!!

Flexrock Concern:

Reading over the responses I am concerned about covering our new concrete patio with Flexrock.
It looks great and is exactly what we wanted to do with our patio. We live in BC, Canada with very hot Summers and mostly mild Winters. Home Hardware recommended Flexrock over the other product they had.
Has anyone especially in Canada used Flexrock on their concrete patio and if so what kind of results did they get?

Tim,
I must say thank you keep it coming, to me this is just another if you can do it so can I subject, and your comments and suggestion are helpful, I started out with the floor of one room that had me upset and under budget to replace the carpet so the research began for alternative, and I know have a marble looking floor, and going to do the rest of the house, including countertops.
Thank you. and will continue to visit this website for suggestions..

Our new house has concrete c/tops in the kitchen, poured in a malamine form and then flipped into place. They look fab! We used a waterbased concrete sealer that seems to lose its hardness (gets tacky) when acid from fruit rests on it. I'll probably re-apply a urethane after lightly scouring this surface for adhesion. Thanks for this helpful comment section.

I am a do it yourselfer type person that was looking for a new business to do. I chose concrete countertops and took a class at a facility in North Caralolina. First of all it looks like the article above was written in 2004. If that is the case, there have been significant improvements in the problems he had listed. The cracking issues have been handled through the use of support and specific mix combinations...the sealing however is another issue. At the class I attended several were shown and none were perfect yet. However, there were a couple close enough to perfect and if stains occurred they would be repairable. No other surface is perfect if you abuse it. Cast in place is ancient history..any good contractor that knows what they are doing will form and pour offsite. to get the end result you want would be too messy in your home. The wet grinding alone would create a swimming pool in your home. I plan to do this as a business...I am re-studying everything I learned in the class and will follow all the many steps that it takes to create masterpieces. It can be done, but no way a regular diy'er could acheive a professional result..I plan to do quite a bit of practicing before I attempt to sell one to a custome...the other thing is that although the base materials are relatively inexpensive, the tools and all the other ingredients necessary to achieve a professiona result are not. I havent even bought a bag of portland cement yet and my bill is over $4000.00. The average job for most houses is $5000. LEAVE IT TO A PRO...i will post again later to let you know if I can reproduce what I learned in the class. Wish me luck!

one point that may be useful is to emphasize the importance of a rigid base if pouring onto a surface.you might think that stout timber would do but if possible support with stone or brick. wood shrinks and moves in a way that brick does not, and a large area of concrete, even with steel laid in a 2" thick slab will crack like dry toast.

Tim,

I recently bought a house that already had stained concrete countertops and have been living here for just over two years. When I first moved in the counter still had a good seal but through the everyday use and wear and tear that comes with kitchen countertops water no longer beads like it use to. I went to the local hardware store and bought a concrete sealer, then tested it on my counter to find it actually removed the stain. Do you know of a sealant, maybe a wax, that I can buff on? Please help.

darkjuan,
Any recomendations on the websites or books that were most informative and best for learing the process? Any advice on 1st time mistakes or pitfalls you learned from making your first countertop.

I have been making concrete countertops, sinks etc for over 5 ears now. There are several things one need to consider building/buying concrete. If you want to buy then expect the price to be higher than most other solid surfaces(except someting exotic)-why? here is why. A sheet of polished marble/granite may cost 5-15$(wholesale) per square foot. This sheet needs tu be cut and edges polished.However it is a finished sheet. With concrete you buy sandcement and gravel in bags which later needs to be mixed and poured into custom built form. This alone takes more time than cutting that sheet of marble and polishing those edges. Now, once these countertops are poured into their forms they must stay there usually overnight. The forms are usually useless after one use. Once out of the mold concrete needs to be finished and most of the time this involves mechanical grinding/polishing of the whole surface(this adds even more time to all the labor combined). Polishing does not only mean that, it also requires filling up and fixing any imperfections(some are too obvious even for concrete). Once polished it needs to be sealed. Sealing these days means coating concrete with a topical sealant(acrylic, urethane, hybrid etc). I also finish the coating itself to make it look more natural. Now, all these steps take years to master-unless you have experience in woodworking/stone finishing.
Now, if you combine materials and labor required to build these counters you will see that their price should be significantly higher than most other sold surfaces available on the market. The good thing is that each piece is extremely unique to the point that I cannot replicate one piece twice even if I use the same materials, proportions etc. Is it the most economical/practical surface? definitely no. I strongly recommend other materals if price/maintenance is a concern. I basically don't see how concrete can compete with other surfaces.
What is the advantage? In my opiniop the advantage is that it is not and never will be a mainstream/american standard product. It will never be offered by Home Depot/Ikea(I can imagine the list of complaints) and it will always be loved by designers and architects. It is not a surface for everybody. concrete in a kitchen or/bathroom is like a pair of denim-only better with time.

Tim,
The average consumption of Portland cement is around 2.8 billion metric tons per year. The average use for Portland cement for concrete counter tops is 2,500 metric tons per year. Counter tops make up .000089% of the usage. That basically means the industry could care very little about information in this industry. It is not that we are not passing things up to the top as you mentioned. It is that we are so small and there are such greater issues facing the Portland industry that it is of little concern what we are doing. I have been one of the leading fabricators of precast concrete counter tops in this country. Your article is not accurate with what you claim about precasting vs. casting in place. There is a difference between opinion and the facts. The problem is you have based your opinions not on the facts but rather your feelings. With the use of carbon fiber mesh you can achieve great strengths with concrete at long spans. We install large pieces that weigh as much as 800 lbs and some are L-shaped every month. There are ultra violet light cured sealers that are harder than you could imagine made just for concrete counter tops. If I had the time I could go through much of what you have said and show how it is incorrect. My suggestion is you actually speak with a few people who really do it as a profession for a long time before you make such statements.

James Gardiner

The King’s Grant

I think everyone on here has probably found their personal answer to sealing tops. When I installed my first set of concrete tops in 2007 I decided to use a natural bee's wax paste wax on the surface. I found this finish both unique and workable. I also take my tops for what they are...concrete! Part of the beauty of the tops is that they can take the abuse. I put hot pans directly on, have spilled red wine and even have a couple stains. Many of these go away with time. Those that don't have added character. Check out our website, www.revisionsremodeling.net for some good ideas and I highly recommend Fu-Tung Cheng's Concrete Countertops book for reference.
FYI-I charge more to install concrete than granite so if you're having a professional do this for your it's not a thrifty budget project. If they price it like that they don't know what they're doing.